Just leave it alone for now. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. look at the difference! You can use this space to go into a little more detail about your company. R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. In practice this means that the car can overheat and the aux fan will stay off! A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. What is usually sniffed are all the connections in the system: hoses and compressor, condenser, drier, expansion valve and evaporator fittings. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. The difference between R12 and R134a TEV (exp valves) is primarily the 'superheat'. Is it exponential, squared? The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. Hope this helps. Any ideas from the info above? The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. However, R134a is better than R12. ambulance tailgate conversion Questions About Becoming A Professional Member? To prevent refrigerant loss you should consider replacing your old hose lines with barrier type hose. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. Related products. July 3, 2022July 3, 2022. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. It didn't seem too dirty though - I don't think it is the problem, but I could be wrong. It is perhaps possible to locate a unit with a company that purchases close out or distressed merchandise. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. Back in that era, my business associates drove those things, brand new, and maybe I should take my Cadillac instead, no they wouldn't be caught dead in a Caddy, people of our esteem should be driving an MB. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). The symbol implies that R12 is a composite of carbon, chlorine, and fluorine. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. The next piece of equipment to track down leaks is a leak sniffer. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. Is that reasonable?Vent airflow is good, I think. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. Thanks for the input. The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. You can use the R134a retrofit capacity chart for this purpose. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. Then at least I'd know really where I am on it. Is the information not applicable to the old Pantera system? What is a T/C?4. #4. video clubhouse baseball; nick fairley draft profile; ben davis work pants Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. I don't know where it is getting the switch off command, or why the vent temp drops steadily. Replace the drier with a drier that has a desiccant that is R134a compatible, use new R134a o-rings. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. Kommentare . Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. I have the original (R12) style expansion valve in the Maverick AC system. The good thing is that after you convert to R134 you can top off the system easily and cheaply. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. However, if it is taken close to a fire flame or any electrical heating element, it disintegrates into toxic products. If you have a perfectly operating system using R12 you do not have to drop what you are doing and convert to R134a. Can I use the one for the R-12? By noting the ambient temperature you can look up what the preferred high side pressure should be. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. That would be the "black death" syndrome. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. Hmmmm. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. You may have heard of a friend that did the job himself with borrowed equipment and 12 or 16 ounce cans of refrigerant. And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. "Howdy, Folks!" I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. The global warming potential of R134a is 1430. The first vehicle that used the R1234yf refrigerant was the 2013 Cadillac XTS. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . If you are replacing other system components, such as condensers, driers or hoses, you may need to add more a/c refrigerant oil to the system. ThanksPaul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. I mean, really a lot. I have a laser temp reader, and it says the temps going into the condensor are up to 160F - coming out it is always around 110 or so. Automotive Replacement Expansion Valves & Parts; Industrial & Scientific; Customer Reviews. 3) A/C Compressor Always On. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . hardly noticable. This would be a custom install, there is no "drop-in" condensor upgrade for that car.Check for proper fan operation, and clean the air path on both the condensor & radiator. 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12. The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. This may be the source of your oil confusion. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? Therefore, the higher the factor of the chemical (compound), the greater its effect on global warming. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. The substitute that we used for R-12 was the new HFC called R-134a. Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. It may take a couple of tries to get things really clean.The laser is usually close on clean surfaces, but I prefer a T/C. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. The cable is adjustable at the valve arm. R-134a can actually cool better than R-12 in a well designed R-134a system as it has better thermoconductive properties, but all the high pressure issues have to be addressed.But even when these cars were brand new, didn't cool worth a damned, recall almost dying in one in Las Vegas at the time, but a good way to lose weight with gallons of perspiration pouring out, just don't let that drip on the seats, that is inappropriate. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. And I lied about the compressor switches on this car - there are 2 switches on the drier - a temp and a pressure switch. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. However, take note that R134a refrigerants are manufactured specifically for automotive air conditioners. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. Why wait for 200f on the engine coolant to start the fan? If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. I'm thinking I might have put too much oil in the system - everywhere i read had a different amount - the manufacturer of the compressor, the MB factory service manual, online forums. It has already been clearly stated that R12 is a chemical that damages the earths ozone layer and shouldnt be released into the environment no matter the circumstance. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Is checking the temperature of the in and out of the condensor not the easiest way to tell if it is doing a good job or not? 10,000BTU conduction heating? Any advice appreciated. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. SO here's my question. Use strips of foam to couple the two heat exchangers if necessary.B. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. CONCLUSIONS The differences in the theoretical C.O.P.H calculated for R12 and R134a are consistent with values quoted in the literature. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. After the initial charge the system is then tweeked : you determine the optimum amount of refrigerant to match your system by monitoring the a/c outlet vent temperature and the high side pressure as you add or remove refrigerant. In a car ac, using this type of freon 20 years ago was difficult. I put in a new (not reman) compressor (R4 I believe it is) in my merc 240D, new drier, new expansion valve, new o-rings, nylog. The typical scenario here is when the car owner buys an inexpensive retro-fit kit from the local auto parts store. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. If 50 degrees across the cond. Also called the orifice tube. Generally, the new amount is 75-85% of the quantity advised by the manufacturer. of coiled cap tube on VCR system with R134a. R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. R404a is a zeotropic blend with a temp glide , because of the mixture of 2 or more refrigerants. With the oil leaking out and being told all sorts of things about how these compressors don't have a sump etc, I wanted to be on the safe side. Fitting a PF condensor is not rocket science, but it requires some planning. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. shown for the parallel flow, aluminum condenser that is listed. B. How an A/C Expansion Valve Works. R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. I have just bought gauges. Bottom line, R134a simply doesn't cool as well as R12. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. The aux fan didn't switch on though and I didn't check the high side temperature. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . The original expansion valves work very well with R134a. Agram a retevis rt22 password i bastrop county district clerk records el material que oferim als nostres webs. This is the part that controls the system pressures. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? In short, NO! Look at where the lines will end up. If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. by | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. How is 1234yf different from . However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. I'm going to check the condensor is way clean too. Looks like a couple of things happening here1) 80's vintage Eurocars were not "meat lockers". Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. R134a and water have the same abilities to change the state but R134a can do this more rapidly and at a much lower temperature than water. We suggest dumping the old refrigerant oil in a clean container and inspect the oil for sludge or waxing (old oil that has gelled) and contamination (metal particles). I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. If the water valve is not closing all the way you will have re-heating of the cabin air.The cabin blower was not exactly a powerhouse - it was rated at 200w. Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. What effect would it have on performance, if any? Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. They have no moving parts. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. Even with proper fan operation, missing seals & air dams can effect condensor effeciency. Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). Bookmarks: Digg; del . 5. A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. 2) Frost on the Vents. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. Have a look in the FAQ Section, and look for "Fan clutches & testing them". It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. Some say that a chemical reaction can harm the A/C very badly as R134a reacts with mineral oil in some way. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. The value of carbon dioxide is 1. Very interesting! Instead of using R12, its preferable to use R134a because it is very easy to find in the market, its sold at an affordable price, and is environmentally friendly. Not going to mess up your 'do, but you can feel it. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? Performance doesn't seem to have improved. J.Harris said: Or if you want to do it like they do in Mexico you can use propane, it's an excellent refrigerant but highly flammable. The approval is very legal one, governed by the U.S. EPA. The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. At least you do not have 16 ounces in there ( yup seen it before).For now, straighten all of the fins that you can, clean the condensor well, and re-test with the aux fan running. A/C systems designed to use R-12 will cool best when charged with R-12 refrigerant. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. An orifice tube is just a fixed nozzle that pisses refrigerant into the evaporator without any sort of feedback. But I've read that these car's didn't do too well in the a/c stakes, so that might just be as good as it gets. 2022 nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer, a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve, 2020 white paper of the church of pentecost, Chime Mobile Check Deposit Funds Availability, Why Does James Kill Donald In The Vanishing, nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. Recharge the compressor with a/c ester oil and a tracer dye. Paul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. Yes, this was a smokers car. Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. 5. Is there a source of valves by, say, eaton number? One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. We chose to use 5-6 ounces of oil to be on the safe side: 3-4 ounces for the compressor, 1 oz of oil for the drier and another ounce of oil for system losses. Generally this works well for the whole system. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. Operating Pressure/Temperature Differences The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. It won't be optimal, though. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. Electric fans do wear out. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. |. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. R404a for freezing of product. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. don't know enough about the subject to explain the choices.However, a few days ago I called the dealer to see about an OEM TEV and they said something that made me feel a little bit better; the same part number superceded every application back to the '60s, and that they couldn't do that without engineering signing off on it.Still, I would feel a lot better if I could see something written officially that compared the flow characteristics and performance of r12 and 134a TEVs are concluded that they were interchangeable in automotive applications.If someone knows of such a document I would sleep much better!Walt Edited: Mon September 12, 2005 at 8:13 PM by wamcneil. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. The AC usually does not work at all. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. He started writing automotive articles to share his garage experience with car enthusiasts and armature mechanics. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. how to get to disney springs from boardwalk / bb dakota plaid jacket canada / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. 2001-2023 Griffiths Technical Inc. All Rights Reserved. By using a qualified a/c shop with the proper equipment you odds are in your favor of having the job done correctly the first time. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. Rxmechanic.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for website owners to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. Do a pre-inspection and then Evacuate (vacuum down) the system, the longer the evacuation the better but there is a point of diminishing return, 2-3 hours is generally very good. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. The oil used in R12 and R134a are different and not compatible. I am ordering new parts, and planning to convert my system to R-134a. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve why is miles raney not on homestead rescue June 21, 2022. manila mayor candidates 2022 You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. For R12, its mineral oil. This is because R134a. #13. Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. With tube & fin condensors in MVAC applications there is never "too much" airflow. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. The mechanical fan & clutch should be checked as well. . The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. A discussion of the relationship between valve capacities and superheat set-tings can be found in Bulletin 10-9.
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